Another reader here River. :) I hope all your readers will come out of lurk mode to comment on this post so you will see how much you are valued by many people. :) I haven't read any of Keller's books myself so can't comment directly on him. But I would want to echo the comment by MOI; truth can be found in some surprising places. And, like Bruce, I would struggle to tolerate any of those in the list you mention.
Cameron
· 10 months ago
Yep, I just want to reiterate what others have said (I think). Don't worry about the label. Labels have their place, but they're surprisingly useless when we're looking for truth. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I've rejected a lot of the hot-shot teaching that comes out of my denomination which is where I would be expected to look to first for theology that fits my way of thinking. Conversely, there is a lot of very good thinking that goes on in other denominations---even in other religions and atheism. I've learnt a lot about God from those sources. They have a different set of baggage and assumptions, which means they don't shy away from reaching certain obvious but unpopular conclusions. Just for the record, I don't enjoy reading the writers you mention. Apart from Packer I haven't got past the first chapter of any of their books. Packer has a rather good book about holiness that serves as a very useful counterpoint to my own denomination's teaching. Sometimes apparent opposites in theology can work together nicely.
MOI
· 10 months ago
River, It is sad when we realize that we've found valuable spiritual information form a not so ecumenical source, but it can be had. I see spiritual reading as like gleaning, separating the wheat from the chaff. I don't like some pastors' belief systems (Driscoll et al) and never will but it is possible to hear truth, even from the "devil." Truth is truth. This is why discernment is so important. This is why all faith paths inform me. As long as we cling to the primary truth that makes us Christian, I believe we can get our spiritual nourishment just about anywhere. But that's just me! :-)
Bruce
· 10 months ago
River, Well I read your blog and I am a very very important person :) I like Keller. His books are thoughtful and helpful. Those he runs with/associates with/is labeled with, much less so. Packer is about the only one I can tolerate any more (in the list of men you mentioned) Many Reformed writers confuse Calvinism with "the truth once delivered to the saints" and with "the gospel" At best, Calvinism is a philosophical school of thought. While it may have merit (though I don't think so) it should not be confused with the truth that must be believed. Of course I would say the same about ALL schools of thought. It really is all about Jesus. :) Bruce
River
· 10 months ago
MOI, (Big Hug) Thank you. I have no problem accepting God's truth from sources that I don't necessarily agree with. Tim Keller's book came along exactly when I needed it. He made a deep impact. I even felt chastened a few times when I was reading ... then convicted ... then repentant. And I have no hesitation about recommending his book. It was (is) wonderful.
Andrew
· 10 months ago
Haven't read any Keller yet, but he is now on my list. I think oft times, it is hard to separate agreeing with someone on something, and agreeing with them. The more I learn about reformed theology, the more it gives me the willies. The guilt by association thing is strong. I have to resist the urge to completely discount anyone who thinks Driscoll is in any way, shape, or form speaking for God. I know. That is strong. I said I am working on it.
Bruce
· 10 months ago
Yes I now realize One Small Step wrote what I attributed to River. Arggg....... I also NOW see EDIT and so I didn't have to leave this comment. Double Arggg..... Bruce Bruce
OneSmallStep
· 10 months ago
Bruce, Isn't there some sort of quote about how the things we most dislike in others are the things we least dislike about ourselves? On the other hand, I share MOI's dislike of Driscoll, and yet can see very few things in myself that resemble Driscoll's behavior. So I'm not sure how accurate the theoretical quote is. MOI, I was drawn to OSC's work due to his Ender series.
MOI
· 10 months ago
Bruce, I'm with you on Driscoll. The man literally turns my stomach. I would be severely turned off Christianity if I were a non-believer and heard him speak. One Small Step, I love Orson Scott Card as well. His fictional book on the Mormons (as he is Mormon) titled "Saints" was one of the best historical fictions I had ever read. To me it's right up there with A Peaceable Kingdom about the Quakers.
River
· 10 months ago
Me too, Andrew, me too. That is one of the reasons (aside from really liking him) that I still recommend Keller. I do not want to slip into the guilt by association thing. It ticks me off. :)
Mason
· 10 months ago
I'll have to pick up The Reason for God, I've heard a lot of good reviews so far. Can't say I knew he was all that Reformed either. Now Keller could be broadly Reformed so don't rule him out. By that I mean not like Piper, MacArthur, and Driscoll but more in line with Packer, McGrath, Kevin VanHoozer, and their ilk, all of whom are excellnt authors and nothing like the stuff you were reading on blogs or the 'Neo-Reformed' folk. I've been following the Piper-Wright debate for a while now, and like you I find a lot of the rhetoric from what Scot terms the Neo-Reformed to be quite unsettling. I think part of the issue there is that those who are demonizing Wright see him as a threat because he's not liberal or Arminian (the groups they are used to debating) but he takes on some Reformed distinctives and so they don't know what to do with him and think he'll lead their own astray. Just read the attacks on him, they're almost always recycled debating points against liberalism or Arminans, which of course rather misses the point.
Bumble
· 10 months ago
I like Keller too - but I am not Reformed. In fact, a group of us Christian at my work get together once a week, listen to Keller's talk and discuss his ideas. We have a Roman Catholic, a Liberal, a Fundamentalist, and a Charismatic. What makes us all like Keller, is that he keep expounding the Gospel, the Good News that unite us all!
OneSmallStep
· 10 months ago
River, **might not have given him a fair hearing otherwise. (That doesn’t say much about me does it?)** I think it says you're like most of us, in that it can be very difficult to separate the words themselves from the personality behind the words.
River
· 10 months ago
OSS, I am grateful that I read the book before finding that out. I might not have given him a fair hearing otherwise. (That doesn't say much about me does it?)
All Comments
I haven't read any of Keller's books myself so can't comment directly on him. But I would want to echo the comment by MOI; truth can be found in some surprising places. And, like Bruce, I would struggle to tolerate any of those in the list you mention.
Don't worry about the label. Labels have their place, but they're surprisingly useless when we're looking for truth. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I've rejected a lot of the hot-shot teaching that comes out of my denomination which is where I would be expected to look to first for theology that fits my way of thinking.
Conversely, there is a lot of very good thinking that goes on in other denominations---even in other religions and atheism. I've learnt a lot about God from those sources. They have a different set of baggage and assumptions, which means they don't shy away from reaching certain obvious but unpopular conclusions.
Just for the record, I don't enjoy reading the writers you mention. Apart from Packer I haven't got past the first chapter of any of their books. Packer has a rather good book about holiness that serves as a very useful counterpoint to my own denomination's teaching. Sometimes apparent opposites in theology can work together nicely.
It is sad when we realize that we've found valuable spiritual information form a not so ecumenical source, but it can be had. I see spiritual reading as like gleaning, separating the wheat from the chaff. I don't like some pastors' belief systems (Driscoll et al) and never will but it is possible to hear truth, even from the "devil." Truth is truth. This is why discernment is so important. This is why all faith paths inform me. As long as we cling to the primary truth that makes us Christian, I believe we can get our spiritual nourishment just about anywhere. But that's just me! :-)
Well I read your blog and I am a very very important person :)
I like Keller. His books are thoughtful and helpful. Those he runs with/associates with/is labeled with, much less so.
Packer is about the only one I can tolerate any more (in the list of men you mentioned)
Many Reformed writers confuse Calvinism with "the truth once delivered to the saints" and with "the gospel" At best, Calvinism is a philosophical school of thought. While it may have merit (though I don't think so) it should not be confused with the truth that must be believed. Of course I would say the same about ALL schools of thought.
It really is all about Jesus. :)
Bruce
(Big Hug) Thank you.
I have no problem accepting God's truth from sources that I don't necessarily agree with. Tim Keller's book came along exactly when I needed it. He made a deep impact. I even felt chastened a few times when I was reading ... then convicted ... then repentant. And I have no hesitation about recommending his book. It was (is) wonderful.
I think oft times, it is hard to separate agreeing with someone on something, and agreeing with them.
The more I learn about reformed theology, the more it gives me the willies.
The guilt by association thing is strong. I have to resist the urge to completely discount anyone who thinks Driscoll is in any way, shape, or form speaking for God.
I know. That is strong. I said I am working on it.
I also NOW see EDIT and so I didn't have to leave this comment. Double Arggg.....
Bruce
Bruce
Isn't there some sort of quote about how the things we most dislike in others are the things we least dislike about ourselves? On the other hand, I share MOI's dislike of Driscoll, and yet can see very few things in myself that resemble Driscoll's behavior. So I'm not sure how accurate the theoretical quote is.
MOI,
I was drawn to OSC's work due to his Ender series.
I'm with you on Driscoll. The man literally turns my stomach. I would be severely turned off Christianity if I were a non-believer and heard him speak.
One Small Step,
I love Orson Scott Card as well. His fictional book on the Mormons (as he is Mormon) titled "Saints" was one of the best historical fictions I had ever read. To me it's right up there with A Peaceable Kingdom about the Quakers.
Now Keller could be broadly Reformed so don't rule him out. By that I mean not like Piper, MacArthur, and Driscoll but more in line with Packer, McGrath, Kevin VanHoozer, and their ilk, all of whom are excellnt authors and nothing like the stuff you were reading on blogs or the 'Neo-Reformed' folk.
I've been following the Piper-Wright debate for a while now, and like you I find a lot of the rhetoric from what Scot terms the Neo-Reformed to be quite unsettling.
I think part of the issue there is that those who are demonizing Wright see him as a threat because he's not liberal or Arminian (the groups they are used to debating) but he takes on some Reformed distinctives and so they don't know what to do with him and think he'll lead their own astray. Just read the attacks on him, they're almost always recycled debating points against liberalism or Arminans, which of course rather misses the point.
What makes us all like Keller, is that he keep expounding the Gospel, the Good News that unite us all!
**might not have given him a fair hearing otherwise. (That doesn’t say much about me does it?)**
I think it says you're like most of us, in that it can be very difficult to separate the words themselves from the personality behind the words.
I am grateful that I read the book before finding that out. I might not have given him a fair hearing otherwise. (That doesn't say much about me does it?)