DISQUS

The Rambling Taoist · 4 months ago

I'll go one step further: I don't think ANY of the gospels portray an accurate depiction of this Jesus fellow. All of them have been so corrupted through the years that it's near impossible to know what he actually said and what was later stuck in his mouth. All we really know is that he PROBABLY was a real person, though the Jesus we view in the bible may, in fact, be a composite of several people.

River · 4 months ago

Actually I agree with you. In fact I don't rule out that Paul made the whole thing up and that the gospels were later attempts to flesh out a history for a fake person. Still though, using Mark as a starting point isn't a bad idea, and I for one don't like what I find.

atimetorend · 4 months ago

I've been following those posts as well. I am torn myself between what seems good to me, which is much as you posted here, and what I should think about liberal Christianity. If liberal Christianity is some artificial construct of beliefs about who Jesus was, what the bible is, how people should live, why people exist, etc., it should have to be criticized as intellectually bankrupt. On one hand, why not jettison the belief system if it doesn't hold together intellectually, on the other hand, there are some beautiful things in it, maybe it's harder to re-invent the wheel than to follow some traditions along with allowing for some of that intellectual disconnect?

I guess I'm agreeing with the premise of your (excellent) post, live and let live, but be perplexed at the same time.

River · 4 months ago

I've tried to hang onto Christianity many many times. I've had the mindset, as you said above, that there are some beautiful things within it and maybe it's harder to reinvent from scratch ... At this point, however, after trying and failing and trying and failing, I vote to jettison the whole shebang. :-D I vote that we reinvent the wheel.

Tim · 4 months ago

River, I have given myself over to the ponder of this subject for many years. As you may remember, I once studied as an aspiring minister of the gospel; I am currently (although soon to resign) the Chaplain for a Lodge of Freemasons, and I once worked as a driver for an evangelist preacher.
My studies have revealed that many traditions that have been widely accepted as truth are wrong. Simple things such as Jesus being a carpenter; he was most likely a stone mason by trade. There is also evidence that Peter held Paul to be Anti-Christ.
But all in all, What in the hell does any of us really know?
This is why I ascribe to (or practice to) such as the following http://www.texaschapbookpress.com/magellanslog5...

River · 4 months ago

Hey Tim :)

I tend to view reality through a Taoist lens, even if I don't subscribe to every thought as put forth in the Tao Te Ching. I came to this view in a round about way though, as I pondered the "duality in unity" that is life.

If I could put a practice into practice though, I still feel drawn to much of Paganism. Or perhaps I should say a non-dualistic nature mysticism, as I can't get enthused about much of the trappings that seem to come with today's Paganism.

Reg Webb · 4 months ago

Thank you for this. Once the teaching is divorced from the accrued theology, everything gets much easier. You don't have to agree with your teachers, you just have to be stimulated by what they say.

I've been fortunate enough never to have felt that my very salvation depended on swallowing the whole package.

In a highly materialistic world, much of what Jesus says is challenging to say the least. Of course, he's not the only one to have expressed this kind of view, but those who profess Christianity are remarkably good at ignoring this radical area of the words ascribed to Jesus.

So yes, Jesus, interesting guy, whoever he was or wasn't.

River · 4 months ago

Hi Reg. Thanks for visiting! :-D

There is no doubt that some of the ideas ascribed to Jesus are wise and challenging. That's for sure.

I do have a problem separating the hellfire and damnation theology from the package, as it was very definitely pounded in my brain that I'd be dead at God's war if I didn't do exactly as I was told. But then, according to the Gospels, Jesus talked an awful lot about Hell. :(

Reg Webb · 4 months ago

"But then, according to the Gospels, Jesus talked
an awful lot about Hell."

I always preferred Mark as being written closest to the time when Jesus was around, being more biographical in character, with less theology bolted on to fit the prevailing doctrinal needs of the times when the later gospels were written.

I haven't read the bible for ages though, and the antipathy to Jesus which Mark raises in you makes me want to go back and revisit Mark's account. Since by "ages", I'm talking more than 40 years, quite a lot has changed in this head during the interim. But I'm grateful to the gentle Anglican background of my education for not filling me with the fear of iminent and eternal frying.

Thanks for this blog. It's interesting, to me at least, that my favourite blogs are almost all run by women, with the notable exception of Figleaf. (End of off topic asside).

River · 4 months ago

Thank you very much for the blog compliment! It doesn't look like you're posting anywhere out there (are you?)

I think I shall have to dig out my Bible and give a once over to Mark and post what I find. It will have to wait till I get home from work though. :-D

Reg Webb · 4 months ago

Posting all too sporadically at Tangentville. People keep writing interesting stuff to read, and I'm easily distracted.

OneSmallStep · 4 months ago

**I think that as time went on the writers of the gospels made Jesus into a nicer and nicer (more universal) guy.**
 
Do you mean 'nicer' only in the sense of Jesus became more inclusive of those outside of Israel?  Because in reading the Gospel of John, there are quite a few moments in there where he doesn't come across as nice at all.  Those who reject the light are those who prefer clinging to the darkness, or how he treats the Jewish leaders -- you are of your father the devil -- which I believe contribute a lot to the anti-Semitic feelings we've seen over the last 2,000 years.

River · 4 months ago

Reg,

I have added your sporadic blog to my feed reader. I'm hoping you'll post at least once a month. :)

River · 4 months ago

OSS,

I was referring to the message becoming more inclusive of outsiders. And I agree that John's Jesus pulls no punches in his feelings towards those he doesn't care for.

Tim · 4 months ago

Christian theology is so misunderstood - what you see portrayed by the Fundamentalists and the traditionalists is not the teachings of Jesus or a reflection of the thoughts of many early monks, mystics and Church fathers. This is also reflected even in the direction of the comments on this post -

"Jesus talked an awful lot about Hell.” & **I think that as time went on the writers of the gospels made Jesus into a nicer and nicer (more universal) guy.**.....

Geesh!!!

If we're going to examine its flaws, let's not be so general as to sound like passing gas!!!

River · 4 months ago

Well Geesh Tim, I'll try my damnedest not to be so general sounding any more. I'll make sure I provide references and footnotes for everything I write.

Grumpy much?

River · 4 months ago

PS - I'm very sorry for being snippy. It's been a bad day. Not trying to excuse my behavior, but I'm feeling a bit off. :(

Tim · 4 months ago

Ha - ha, River...I'm not grumpy either....:>)) Na, its just such a serious subject for me. I'm not trying to be a Dick here.. I have battled Fundies from within and without. I guess it just irked me a wee bit. Nothing to be alarmed about. Still Love you!!!!!!
I'll share a few of my thoughts...
http://tao1776.blogspot.com/search?q=ann+coulter
http://tao1776.blogspot.com/search?q=christian
http://tao1776.blogspot.com/2005/10/realization...