I think these are all excellent points, and I can think of two typical responses to this -- either it's a liberal response, and thus can be interpreted away. Or the conservative response is that you/we are prideful, putting our own reason above God, and who are we puny mortals to question God in the first place?
I like the liberal response better. I've used the liberal response quite a bit in my life. But the problem I see with both is that neither really addresses the core problems brought up in this video. One avoids the issue by saying that we don't have to take it literally or read the Bible literally. The other attacks the person asking the questions.
On another note, it's always interesting to have that realization that the Bible reads exactly as one would expect, if one were taking it as a work produced by the culture of its time. It doesn't read at all like a work of timeless truth.
River
· 4 months ago
OSS,
What I appreciate is when I see people wrestling with these insights. I certainly closed my eyes for a long time. I even tried the "God was that way with those people in that time, but is this way with these people in this time" route. It doesn't work. The cognitive dissonance required is huge.
atimetorend
· 4 months ago
"... the conservative response is that you/we are prideful, putting our own reason above God, and who are we puny mortals to question God in the first place?"
I had a line like that going through my head as I watch the video each time I thought of showing it to Christian friends. I wish they could hear those things without having that response.
I wish I could remember or understand what I did with those thoughts over the years myself. I don't think I wrestled with them long as a Christian, gave up quickly and repressed them as much as possible I think. I never fully subscribed to the conservative line quoted above. I think I just "mystery of God"ed them and left it at that. I like the liberal response better too of course, but for me it seems like what is the point then (as per OSS's 3rd paragraph above).
River
· 4 months ago
I know that I repressed those thoughts while I was a Jehovah's Witness (and every time I tried to go back to Christianity). Then something would intrude on my blissful self-delusion and the questions would arise.
OneSmallStep
· 4 months ago
**Then something would intrude on my blissful self-delusion and the questions would arise.**
It does make me wonder what the line is between peace and ignorance. Note -- River, I'm not calling you ignorant. I'm just thinking back on my own experiences, and how easier it was to maintain certain elements of faith before doing all the research I did. Once I did the research, the questions had nowhere to go but bounce around in my head. In looking back, it wasn't a certainty-sense of peace I had, it was a peace born of ignorance, and my own culture. Because a lot of what I was confident about in the Bible came about because of my own cultural understanding applied to the Bible.
River
· 4 months ago
I think that there has to be a fair amount of ignorance for there to be true peace. If there is not, then I don't think it's peace. I think it's dissonance and self-delusion.
I don't mean that harshly. I did it to myself and I can own it. :)
OneSmallStep
· 4 months ago
River,
Unless peace really is only dissonance and self-delusion in the first place ... and not just in God matters, but in all matters. I mean, I can have a sense of peace about my life, but only when not thinking about those who live in third-world countries, or those who were horribly attacked, or someone who just lost a family member ...
River
· 4 months ago
You know, you're right. Wow. That's a bit of a morning epiphany for me.
That kind of plays into my dream from the other night - that saying "All is love" misses the point and is delusional. That doesn't mean reality is bad. It does mean waking up and seeing everything for what it really is.
All Comments
I like the liberal response better. I've used the liberal response quite a bit in my life. But the problem I see with both is that neither really addresses the core problems brought up in this video. One avoids the issue by saying that we don't have to take it literally or read the Bible literally. The other attacks the person asking the questions.
On another note, it's always interesting to have that realization that the Bible reads exactly as one would expect, if one were taking it as a work produced by the culture of its time. It doesn't read at all like a work of timeless truth.
What I appreciate is when I see people wrestling with these insights. I certainly closed my eyes for a long time. I even tried the "God was that way with those people in that time, but is this way with these people in this time" route. It doesn't work. The cognitive dissonance required is huge.
I had a line like that going through my head as I watch the video each time I thought of showing it to Christian friends. I wish they could hear those things without having that response.
I wish I could remember or understand what I did with those thoughts over the years myself. I don't think I wrestled with them long as a Christian, gave up quickly and repressed them as much as possible I think. I never fully subscribed to the conservative line quoted above. I think I just "mystery of God"ed them and left it at that. I like the liberal response better too of course, but for me it seems like what is the point then (as per OSS's 3rd paragraph above).
It does make me wonder what the line is between peace and ignorance. Note -- River, I'm not calling you ignorant. I'm just thinking back on my own experiences, and how easier it was to maintain certain elements of faith before doing all the research I did. Once I did the research, the questions had nowhere to go but bounce around in my head. In looking back, it wasn't a certainty-sense of peace I had, it was a peace born of ignorance, and my own culture. Because a lot of what I was confident about in the Bible came about because of my own cultural understanding applied to the Bible.
I don't mean that harshly. I did it to myself and I can own it. :)
Unless peace really is only dissonance and self-delusion in the first place ... and not just in God matters, but in all matters. I mean, I can have a sense of peace about my life, but only when not thinking about those who live in third-world countries, or those who were horribly attacked, or someone who just lost a family member ...
That kind of plays into my dream from the other night - that saying "All is love" misses the point and is delusional. That doesn't mean reality is bad. It does mean waking up and seeing everything for what it really is.